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 authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders 
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
I'm learning more all the time : \

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18 Jun 2012 12:24
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
DrDAV wrote:
Lazarus,
I also have a Dually on order since Apr 11th with AoN, I have emailed Robby 4 times in the last 3 weeks and have heard NOTHING.
If you get through to him, tell him Dr DAV would like some correspondence on his build. I'm pretty patient and understanding, but I'm getting to my limits on the lack of communication. I will try to call and email him again tomorrow, any help would be appreciated.


Nothing in three weeks? That is unfortunate... I placed my order April 3rd so I'm just ahead of you. In all honesty, his communication got a lot better after I reamed him out pretty good in an e-mail. Three weeks is unacceptable. I don't understand why some builders think they can go weeks without responding to communication attempts and think it is fine.


18 Jun 2012 12:40
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
It's just one builder... I know most of the builders now and can say we do answer correspondence and do everything we can to fill orders in a timely fashion

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18 Jun 2012 14:35
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
Just so. I haven't heard anything bad about you guys. And certainly, people, if things have been troubling with ANY builder, contact me!

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18 Jun 2012 14:42
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
Sorry, I meant builders in general (I've had some bad experience with OTHER builders), not any other builders here specifically. Apologies if my post was interpreted that way!


18 Jun 2012 14:53
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
Read many a horror story about various luthiers, as well as some "custom cab builders", fersure. I didn't interpret your comment as such, Laz, but I guess it doesn't hurt to seek clarity on these matters, as dukerock understood.

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18 Jun 2012 15:03
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
Sometimes, the lack of communication comes from the customer end, but the latest one had a pretty valid excuse.. lets just say that would be the only reason I don't follow up on correspondence...

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18 Jun 2012 15:56
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
DrDAV wrote:
Lazarus,
I also have a Dually on order since Apr 11th with AoN, I have emailed Robby 4 times in the last 3 weeks and have heard NOTHING.
If you get through to him, tell him Dr DAV would like some correspondence on his build. I'm pretty patient and understanding, but I'm getting to my limits on the lack of communication. I will try to call and email him again tomorrow, any help would be appreciated.


What I have found success with is to email him initially then wait 3 days. Then I emailed him every other day non-stop until I got a response. For example I would number the emails "3rd email" etc and just keep cutting and pasting the same message.

A telephone call might be a good method of reaching him too.

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18 Jun 2012 17:26
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
Man that Sucks to hear!! When I had my cabs Built by Dekker he would always e-mail me back with in hours of sending one to him and never had a trouble getting ahold of him on his phone...it was a pleasure dealing with him... He was very patient with me esp when i ended up changing some stuff last min!! and in the end he did some real top notch work and i feel went the extra mile to make sure my cabs were the best and that i was completely happy!! Really hope you guys can get your stuff worked out and get them fine cabs delivered!!....i would hate to see another Dr.B@$$ thing go down esp with my Beloved fEARful name being attached to it!! :cry: So here to hoping for the Best!! :)

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18 Jun 2012 19:10
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
Please don't use Dr. Bass in comparison to AoN. There is a big difference between stealing people's money, and having deadline and communication issues.


18 Jun 2012 19:50
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
Lazarus.Bird wrote:
Please don't use Dr. Bass in comparison to AoN. There is a big difference between stealing people's money, and having deadline and communication issues.



No I am Sorry i didnt mean it to come across that way at all.....I dont think Robby is anything thing like Dr 8@$$....i was saying is that i would hate to see something like that happen with ANY of the authorized builders!!....And i wasnt wanting to comparing it esp to the stealing part.....it was more just about the part of never getting a hold of the person....and saying yes it will be done right away and then it not happening!!! I am sure that it has got to be just as Frustrating on Robby cause them beautiful cabs he builds are not easy to do esp when you are trying to work out the kinks at the same time as trying to fill orders....to me it just seams more like taking more on ones plate and finding it hard to finish then first thought!! I truly hope Robby Can get it together and get them cabs out that people are waiting for!! and by the looks of it he is trying.....i am sure he is living on very lil sleep working on them things....like i said before That is some crazy stuff he does building them that takes some special typ of skill to work with that stuff!! All the Best Robby Hope you can Kick some Butt!!

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18 Jun 2012 22:39
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
I wrote an extended message, but didn't save it before clicking submit -- and when the connection crashed, I couldn't get back to it. So, I get a chance to try editing in my head and recreating any of it that might be worth saving.

I've stayed out of this discussion, because I didn't have anything to add until now.

I bought one of AoN's returned cabs because I thought I could repair it in a way that would give the the strength of a composite cab, and allow me to tailor it the way I wanted. By the time I finish, I expect to have learned a lot, and will probably have spent more than if I bought someone's used or discounted 15/6/1. But it will be the cab I wanted.

It was purchased "as is", but Robby has been very helpful when I called and either left messages, or got him on the phone. I've appreciated the knowledge he is willing to share.

I understand the desire to please customers which leads one to underestimate the time required to produce a custom product. This has been a long-time problem for me in both programming and watchmaking. At one point I had to return some unrepaired watches to one of my childhood idols because I simply couldn't finish them in the time he wanted to have them -- if I was going to handle any work for my other customers. It hurt, very badly, to be forced into this realization.

I think that what Robby needs is someone to handle the customer communications, orders, billing (an admin or office manager) so that he can focus on the cabinets. Perhaps by making so many changes and one-offs, he's actually preventing himself from streamlining the process of manufacture as well. But I know how answering the phone, even for a few minutes, can sidetrack me for an hour or more if I lose my train of thought when programming, or (worse yet) have a watch part "sproing" into some part of my shop where I need to spend time hunting for it (or ordering a replacement, if available, and then waiting for it to arrive before I can continue with that repair).

Which of us hasn't lusted for a composite cabinet like that blue beauty with the molded-in 90-degree horn?

My sympathies are with the people who are waiting for their cabinets. But I recommend taking Robby's offer of the phone number. Email is undependable, especially if you are in a hurry. I've never had to wait more than a day for Robby to call back when I left a message, and there have been times I've felt guilty because he answered the phone during the middle of his workday. But he has been gracious and generous in answering my questions, and even sent me composite scraps to fill the handle holes in my cabinet when I asked about how to do that.

His heart is in the right place, and I truly hope he can get his business back on track, so that his production matches the ingenious designs he is bringing out.

Marcus

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19 Jun 2012 02:47
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
Thankyou Robby for the reply.
Rock on, I look forward to seeing (and hearing) your work soon.
No problem


19 Jun 2012 08:59
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
Let's not be issuing too many get out of jail free cards. Problems, very real recurring problems need to be solved. Not temporary fixes, but attitude driven CHANGES. Anything anyone has said about looking at workflow, habits, tracking on builds/commissions, business approach, I've said many times in many hours of phone time with Robby over the course of a year. Examples? I've given them.

And lets' not fool ourselves: The Dr Bass comparison might not be so off the mark (!), if one looks at the timeline of how it seems to have gone down. At the start it's possible to have good enough intentions, if wrapped in a rather fuzzy way of bringing them into action. You can look like a going concern. But if you are having problems fulfilling, things snowball. A little later and you are financially further from being able to populate builds. You go after more orders to do that for the past ones. But instead you often use the cash elsewhere, and the earlier guys still haven't been dealt with. It's a TRAP. If you don't stay aligned you can easily find yourself in the same moral predicament as Dr Bass, with an eroded sense of what is right and what is wrong. With people running interference for you, you can begin thinking you have done nothing so bad, you can still have some fuzzy sense that your intentions are good, and that the people who have complained are the bad people, the ones at fault.

So it's a scenario that isn't out of the question - unless the real problems get solved. A big part of that is NOT TAKING ORDERS until the entire backlog is dealt with, with as many customers as is possible satisfied to the extent they deserved in the first place.

Another point. Once you begin going after orders, you are supposed to be in production mode. Beta testing on the customers, or doing R&D on their time is dangerous. There's a fine line between product enhancement/improvement and just not having taken your concepts far enough yet. Taking orders that have promises like delivery dates and quality assurance attached to them should not be happening if you have not solved your engineering problems like durability, acoustic stability, driver and hardware attachment, and quality control.

All that ties into the problems of communications or lack thereof. Most people did not sign up to be guinea pigs. They may not have thought it through based on the evidence that's been in front of them, and they haven't necessarily been told that. But it's a likelihood that that's where faulty communications might have started. Another snowball that can turn into an avalanche.

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19 Jun 2012 09:31
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
Agreed. For myself, I had to stop taking orders and finish my commitments. I'm still working on some. Since I didn't take deposits, people have the option of getting their watches back, or of waiting to have them finished at the original quoted price. It's getting done, but takes time. It proved to me that I don't have the ability to make a full time job of this, at least now and on my own. If I ever return to watchmaking full time, it will be as part of a larger organization composed of people with complementary skills that I lack.

My comment was not intended as a "free" pass, but rather to encourage Robby to examine his options, and his customers to use his phone number.

Thanks for confirming what I expected, Greenboy, that you are very much hands-on in these relationships. Your approach was one of the factors in convincing me to go with fEARful, sight unseen, in the first place. Nothing I've seen since has changed my mind about this. Thanks for insisting on integrity.

Marcus

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19 Jun 2012 12:56
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
I'd really also like to bring this thread back to its purpose: about the Authorized Builders. Though this greenboy/fEARful thing began pretending to be a modest business built upon a rather unorthodox model, it really has become a circle of friends. I've gained so much by having these guys around. They, in a way, are who I want to be. For their attention to detail, their work ethic, their willingness not to NOT fluff up a bunch of fictitious specs to drive sales, and their enthusiasm (for life in general too!).

...One of the biggest temptations these days on any spec sheet is the weight. But with these guys, any species of plywood weighs what it actually weighs. Their plywood has no antigravity nanobots to contradict known figures. Bracing that needs to be there gets put there - even though it weighs something. Why? Because it provides a focused sound from low levels to war SPL, and people get a durable lifetime product. I've been counseled by most of these guys not to focus on weight, but to let performance and specific product needs drive my design work, and thank god for that, because it's very tempting to use cheaper lighter drivers, little or no bracing, build only "full-range" woofer (and maybe a tweet) cabs. They've kept it sane and true.

In this age where expressing sentiments is often thought of as weak, I beg to differ. It's great to appreciate people! So many deserve it. And so...

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19 Jun 2012 13:39
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
Quote:
Problems, very real recurring problems need to be solved. Not temporary fixes, but attitude driven CHANGES.


GB, your posts are very well said and true. However, I would like to especially highlight the truthfulness of the quote above as it is in essence at the heart of the problem with AoN. I guess the big question is does the builder have the willpower and ability to make those changes a lasting reality?

That aside, I am grateful for the generosity of yourself and the other Authorized Builders who have created something truly unique and wonderful in a myriad of different ways.

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19 Jun 2012 17:18
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
I'm brand new on this board and not familiar with y'all and your history, but can I just say as a relative outsider looking in, I'm very impressed at the overall tone and direction of this discussion. I'm sure we can all think of boards where this type of exchange would be a flame war inside of half-a-dozen posts. This is just so... adult: assuming good will and intentions all around, but honestly speaking sometimes hard truths as you see them. Good stuff. I think I'm going to like it around here.


28 Jun 2012 11:20
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
Welcome Billy! Lots of cool adults here :)

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28 Jun 2012 11:37
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Post Re: authorized greenboy designs / fEARful™ builders
AoN needs to change up their website.

http://www.fearfulbass.com/

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30 Jun 2012 12:00
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